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aeturnum 1 days ago [-]
I don't have much to add except to say that I think this is a stand-out example of how companies and preservationists should work together and not against each other. The childish folks who are upset about this aren't familiar with the realties of either open source games perseveration nor the realities of being an IP holder. This is as close as we have gotten to the Good Place. I wish Atari luck on the re-release and I hope that anyone who's upset about it reflects on why they are upset.
superxpro12 1 days ago [-]
This is about as much as you can hope for tbh. More than a fair compromise.
Society has become quite 'entitled' to 'free' things. As popular as they are, torrents and free streams and emulation and clones of games in an open source lib are all stealing something. I know thats an unpopular thing to say but it a fact.
Now, those rights violations viewed in a larger context may change one's opinion on the whole, and I'm not jumping into that debate today.
Atari did a cool thing. That's rare in the corporate world today. Give praise where it's deserved.
II2II 18 hours ago [-]
> Society has become quite 'entitled' to 'free' things. As popular as they are, torrents and free streams and emulation and clones of games in an open source lib are all stealing something. I know thats an unpopular thing to say but it a fact.
Emulators and game engine clones may encourage "stealing", but they are also unique creations. The people who develop said software are typically careful about keeping their software separate from copyrighted materials. In the case of OpenTTD, they did so by creating their own graphics and sound assets to accompany the game engine.
If you are claiming that creating an independent clone of the game engine is stealing, you are entitled to your own opinion. But do understand that it is an opinion and not a fact.
I would also ask you to consider the consequences if that opinion were codified into law. It would make all forms of progress (e.g. literary and technical) nearly impossible since nearly all ideas are derivative. To give an example: the computing landscape would be very different. IBM compatibles would not have been a thing, leaving the market either fragmented or consolidated in the hands of a single company. Oh sure, there were companies that did steal by producing verbatim copies of the IBM PC ROM or the mainboard layout ... but we are talking about a reimplementation in the case of IBM compatibles and OpenTTD, not copies.
Come to think of it, the entire computer industry would have been set back by decades with an excessively strong IP regime. No one seriously classifies the ABC as the first computer, yet the courts used it to strike down patents on early computers. In the early days, IBM played games with IP licensing to try to restrict their competition, something the courts shot down. AT&T didn't give away Unix, nor did they license patents on transistors out of the goodness of their heart. They did so because regulators and the courts recognized that IP could be used to stifle competition (and, by extension, it would have inhibited progress). So I doubt that the courts would agree on emulation or game engine clones being stealing either.
somat 15 hours ago [-]
Ehh, it's not theft, it's copyright infringement. And in the case of openttd, it's not the engine that has the legal problem, it's the graphics and the sound. Openttd is an engine to play transport tycoon content. If openttd distributes transport tycoon's graphics and sound, (which they were) they are infringing on the owners right to distribute.
Update, I got openTTD confused with openRCT, It looks like openttd did redo the graphics and sound, so I think the parent post is correct and atari has little to no legal ground to stand on, the only thing they could reasonably claim is trademark, that is, it is them using the name transport tycoon that is the problem. And that is still not theft, it is trademark infringement.
At this point I would like to plug Simutrans a transport tycoon clone that actually took the effort to make their own graphics and sound. But really, as much as I enjoy simutrans any normal transport tycoon connoisseur will hate it, a bit too different and clunky for them.
2) Simutrans it's half propietary and a good atempt of SPAM, dear friend.
3) Ok, fair, you corrected yourself. But on OpenTTD the OpenSFX and the rest are actually a way to create both compatible graphics and sounds with the existing MODs and stand out as themselves, kinda like FreeDoom: it's obviously made to be compatible with the Doom assets for walls and the like, but the artwork it's closer to a modern HL than Doom. FreeDoom needs to be like a weird Doom in a parallel universe for floors, walls and the like because PWADs demand it so the art looks like compatible (texturing, tiling, lightning) while not being an obvious Doom rip off. And yet it does, I played lots of classic Doom2 compatible PWADs and TC's and the FreeDoom assets perfectly blend ingame. Strain.wad looks even greater.
Are they really stealing it though? They only brought the IP 30 years later they didnt make it or put any work towards it. The openTTD community has easily done 100x the work to extend the game.
ThunderSizzle 22 hours ago [-]
This makes me wonder why squatter's rights are not a thing here...but I don't know much about the current and previous legal status of the open genres like OpenTTD.
jscd 1 days ago [-]
First, I agree it's cool that Atari, with all its ability to completely screw small projects over, didn't do that in this case.
But, at the same time, I find it interesting that "emulations and clones" are considered entitlement (in a derogatory sense), but copyright protection is not. Before 1976 in the US, the _maximum_ copyright term was 56 years, and that would require filing for an extension from the default of _only 28 years_.
I think it's easy to forget that copyright as we know it is not set in stone. Historically, after 28 years, most works became public domain and that meant you could do literally whatever you want with it and it would not be legally stealing at all. I think we as a society have forgotten what it means to have a public domain.
matheusmoreira 20 hours ago [-]
There is in fact legal precedent showing that it is not entitlement.
Sony Computer Entertainment v. Connectix Corp.
> The object code of a program may be copyrighted as expression, 17 U.S.C. § 102(a), but it also contains ideas and performs functions that are not entitled to copyright protection. See 17 U.S.C. § 102(b).
These corporations have actually gone to court over this and lost. It's just that they technically won by bankrupting their opponents via legal costs.
thaumasiotes 17 hours ago [-]
> Historically, after 28 years, most works became public domain and that meant you could do literally whatever you want with it
Historically, all works were public domain at all times.
matheusmoreira 20 hours ago [-]
> clones of games in an open source lib are all stealing something
It's not illegal to create a compatible game engine. The functional ideas inside the games are not protected by copyright. So long as games are clean room reverse engineered there should be no problem.
Actually, even if the reverse engineering was not clean room, it might not be a problem.
Sony Computer Entertainment v. Connectix Corp.
> The object code of a program may be copyrighted as expression, 17 U.S.C. § 102(a), but it also contains ideas and performs functions that are not entitled to copyright protection. See 17 U.S.C. § 102(b).
> Object code cannot, however, be read by humans.
> The unprotected ideas and functions of the code therefore are frequently undiscoverable in the absence of investigation and translation that may require copying the copyrighted material.
> We conclude that, under the facts of this case and our precedent, Connectix's intermediate copying and use of Sony's copyrighted BIOS was a fair use for the purpose of gaining access to the unprotected elements of Sony's software.
Scaevolus 19 hours ago [-]
That's a narrow fair use exception. Many of these open game engines are effectively 1:1 decompilations of the original games, and it would be shocking if they were not effectively copyrighted the same as the original.
I don't think this has been tested in court, but the recent flood of Nintendo game decompilations is likely to change that.
anthk 10 hours ago [-]
Pre BSD's (386BSD) where in the same case with AT&T Unix and after a few years of rewritting code under BSD licenses they were perfectly ok to ship, from NetBSD 0.9 to FreeBSD, OpenBSD was a NetBSD fork.
Current OpenTTD has no former TTD code since decades ago. I remember Solene@ from OpenBSD (now ex-user) playing OpenTTD for MacPPC (PowerPC G4) a few years ago as she had in issue with mouse input.
Good luck running decompiled X86 code as is.
Aeolun 18 hours ago [-]
Atari could have done nothing but re-release transport tycoon and have it stand on its own merits. This is more like they’re leeching off of an IP they’ve more or less not paid any attention to for 20 years.
arvid-lind 1 days ago [-]
> ...all stealing something. I know thats an unpopular thing to say but it a fact.
This is an unpopular opinion because it is not, in fact, a fact.
bigyabai 23 hours ago [-]
> clones of games in an open source lib are all stealing something
If you're going that far, aren't proprietary games and software "stealing" open source libs too? I think your definition is a bit wonky.
anthk 10 hours ago [-]
Stealing what? I own my legal copy of Ars Fatalis which came as a free with a PC gaming magazine from Spain. Now I just use the game data with Arx Libertatis. No one was ripped.
If Ars Libertatis was complete they should have to create their own complete underground story replacing every asset and lore by hand, kinda like FreeDoom/Blasphemer and so on.
An actual libre engine reusing propietary data in a illegal way would be uMario, as it has literal ripped off BMP images pixel per pixel depicting SMB for the NES. And yet the game engine being GPL or MIT would be legal but the bundled game data is not; the creator would just have to use (and state the clear CC licenses) the copyleft artwork from Secret Maryo Chronicles or whatever it's being called today and everything would work as is.
Instead of Mario you would reuse SMC sprites being adapted for the contraints (pixel perfect for feet for instance)
and so and the only issue would be that the levels themselves would be copyrighted.
A single level as Supertux2 does is not a copyright issue because well, it's just a single one and a clear homage to the first level of SMB and even the level is named like that. It might fall under fair use, if I were Nintendo I woudn't sue them because unlike uMario, Supertux2 did things in a respectful manner.
Bear in mind that OpenTTD never did what uMario it's doing. When it had no open content you had to point to the copyrighted data yourself, be from the demo, be from the full game. Later OpenGFX and OpenSFX were created to replace every commercial asset and now OpenTTD has a downloader to get all the CC assets yourself without needing no commercial data at all.
The open content doesn't even have the original levels from TTD as uMario does.
matheusmoreira 20 hours ago [-]
Completely agree. They didn't go after the developers. They didn't shut people down. They didn't threaten legal action. Looks like they just reached out to the people involved in the project and peacefully worked with them instead, even helped with the server costs. Looks like everybody is winning here. Everything is at peace.
I've gained huge respect for Atari. It's a breath of fresh air compared to the likes of EA, Nintendo, Square Enix.
bombcar 1 days ago [-]
I think it's interesting to look at your opinion (not you particularly, but everyone) and see if it would have been different if instead of "Atari" it was "Chris Sawyer".
If it would have been, then there's probably an inconsistency somewhere.
zem 1 days ago [-]
I don't think it's inconsistent to think that a person's right to their IP is worthy of respect but a faceless corporation's isn't. you can disagree, but it's not an inconsistency.
bombcar 1 days ago [-]
It is somewhat, because you then have to say you respect their right to the IP, but don't respect their ability to sell said right.
You can make that argument, but you need to actually do so and not just leave it unsaid.
OkayPhysicist 1 days ago [-]
The distinction is that people respect people who make things they like. That's good, and noble: no matter what kind of topsy-turvy economic system you live under, making stuff is a valuable (not always the most valuable, but valuable nonetheless) skill, because people need and want stuff.
People who merely buy stuff to extract rent from it are, at best, a necessary evil. There's nothing admirable in rentseeking behavior. It's just playing the game.
If we're hanging around a campfire in the paleolithic, the guy who figured out how to make beer is going to be everyone's best friend. The guy who won't let anybody drink from the stream because it's "his" is liable to meet an unfortunate end.
zem 1 days ago [-]
I think the difference in sentiment is between "I created this and I would like to continue deriving benefit from it" versus "we bought this and we would like it to retain its value". again this is not about the legal difference, just how people personally feel about it.
da_chicken 23 hours ago [-]
Eh, Sawyer's career has left him a multi-millionaire, and Transport Tycoon is the foundation of that. If you've already made several lifetimes worth of income, I also don't really care about your IP rights anymore.
zem 23 hours ago [-]
i don't care so much about his IP rights (legal) as about the fact that this is his project (moral)
da_chicken 23 hours ago [-]
Sort of. Releasing something into the world is, in a real sense, giving it up. At some point, you don't have ownership of it anymore. You're the one that created it, but you're no longer in control of it.
Copyright being as extremely long as it is makes us think that making something once means we should profit from it in perpetuity, but that's not really beneficial for society to work like that. That's exactly why patents don't work like that.
Remember, the purpose of copyright is to encourage the creation of new works. Well, if you can create one work and profit from it effectively (i.e., your entire career), why would you create another work? That's just a waste of effort. That's literally the business model of IP holding companies. They don't create. They just own. They're rent-seeking.
legitster 1 days ago [-]
As a sidenote, this whole situation implies just how important platforms are.
Nothing about OpenTTD has changed. You can literally just go download it off their website for free - same as it was 20 years ago. And you can add it to your Steam library just fine. It's only been on the Steam store for 5 of those years.
But the open internet is dead now and just being "de-merchandised" from a platform feels like being relegated to the dark web (maybe something the open source community doesn't quite fully appreciate).
PurpleRamen 1 days ago [-]
> You can literally just go download it off their website for free
That's cumbersome. The main benefit of platforms is comfort. Steam takes care of installation and updating, while often also offers some access with the community. Open internet has more choice and liberty, but for the price of more work and annoyance.
That the main reason why all big platforms succeed and the small platforms fail. Comfort is just too valuable.
philistine 23 hours ago [-]
OpenTTD has an automatic update mechanism already and its installation is as simple as could be.
Steam succeeded because of its store, which still has the best prices on the market. That’s their original moat. Their current moat is sunk costs. People have thousands of dollars in their Steam Library. At this point Steam’s advantages as software are negligible, especially considering its poor performance.
Aeolun 18 hours ago [-]
Steam, and Valve are solely responsible for me never having to deal with Windows, because they’ve made linux gaming easy. I’d use steam just for that.
akimbostrawman 14 hours ago [-]
>Steam succeeded because of its store, which still has the best prices on the market. That’s their original moat. Their current moat is sunk cost.
Then how come epic games store is not able to get a foothold for years despite offering literally free games? Not even children which are most likely to use it because of Fortnite use it for anything but that. Steam is objectively the better store and game launcher regardless or price or "sunk cost".
NoboruWataya 23 hours ago [-]
Easiest of all is `pacman -S openttd`.
satertek 17 hours ago [-]
Or even `winget install openttd`
thaumasiotes 17 hours ago [-]
> That's cumbersome.
Nothing cumbersome about it. No one who wants to do this is going to fail at it, or even be inconvenienced.
> That the main reason why all big platforms succeed and the small platforms fail. Comfort is just too valuable.
The value of the platform, in this case, is that people know where it is, but they don't know where openTTD is.
lstodd 1 days ago [-]
Open internet is dead only to those that don't take the effort to discover. Otherwise it's still as open as it always was.
Since there was an internet to speak of, there always were and still are vast amounts of people unaware of stuff that exists, limited by no "platforms" but only by their own lack of desire.
dryarzeg 1 days ago [-]
That is true to some extent. However, let me ask you one simple question: how would you try to search for something if you are not aware of it's existence? In other words, how people that are not aware of existence of open-source projects (such as OpenTTD) are supposed to discover them if they're not searching for them on purpose (which is impossible given that they have no clue about their existence)?
Of course there will be some ways like social media or something else. But that question is what seems to worry many people in our case, in my humble opinion. Remember that most of the planet's population is not even aware of existence of open-source projects and open-source concept itself. So how are they supposed to discover it if they don't know about it? When it's present on platforms like Steam and GOG, it helps to spread the word, but when it's not... Well, I guess that seems to be a problem for some people.
nimih 1 days ago [-]
> So how are they supposed to discover it if they don't know about it?
Presumably, through social interaction with others in the communities they are a part of. That's how I heard about OpenTTD in the early 00s, at least.
ux266478 24 hours ago [-]
> how would you try to search for something if you are not aware of it's existence?
You're asking a leading question. The verb you're using here is one specifically indicating interaction with a "platform" (a digital aggregation of information). The answer is you don't search anything, you completely change your epistemic and interaction model. Instead you build a social web of people who have their own social webs, and you share things you've made and things that have been shared with you. This is your "platform".
PurpleRamen 1 days ago [-]
> how would you try to search for something if you are not aware of it's existence?
How are most games on steam found? I kinda doubt all people find them through steam own mechanisms. I even doubt the majority find them this way. Gaming has multiple sources of information, be it news, social media, influencers or cooperations. Video-content is probably the biggest source of being discovered for most games these days.
kolinko 14 hours ago [-]
Steam solves delivery, not so much discovery
Nathanba 19 hours ago [-]
there are more platforms for searching for games: youtube, google, chatgpt... it's not so dire that if steam bans you then there is no way to find a game
zer00eyz 1 days ago [-]
> In other words, how people that are not aware of existence of open-source projects (such as OpenTTD) are supposed to discover them if they're not searching for them on purpose (which is impossible given that they have no clue about their existence)?
This question tickles me. In the before time, something would be so good you were compelled to tell someone about it.
Sriracha, Costco are brands you likely know that dont advertise, and somehow got popular. In the 90's there were bands that were massively popular with little to no air play, and less promotion (Fugazi is a great example).
autoexec 1 days ago [-]
> Sriracha, Costco are brands you likely know that dont advertise
probably a little telling that you don't seem to know the name of the sriracha brand you're referring to that does zero-dollar advertising
whstl 1 days ago [-]
Does it matter? People just look for the bottle with a rooster anyway.
zer00eyz 1 days ago [-]
Ahh the old days before Huy Fong lost the plot.
My introduction to their Sriracha was in 1994, when the Puerto Rican cook at the Italian restaurant I worked at sent me to Stop and Shop for the "rooster".
Till hosing their relationship with Underwood Ranch (their sole provider of chili's) this was the only product in the marketplace (much like ketchup was always Heinz for a time). Absolute market dominance wrecked over not honoring your handshake deal with your ONLY supplier.
The latest batches by them are green, and no one wants them. The underwood version of the product is taking over --- it has a giant dragon on the bottle now, and what I look for now rather than the rooster.
shevy-java 1 days ago [-]
Right. This is a chicken-egg problem. We also need a replacement for google search; Google ruined it, on purpose. We are being made blind (not totally blind, but dumber, and then blind).
Asooka 23 hours ago [-]
By googling "best open source games" and finding blogs and forums that talk about them. In fact googling that exact phrase returns as its first search result a Reddit thread in which OpenTTD is one of the first games listed.
It's not like you can discover it on Steam any easier.
Of course, searching for information itself is also a skill, but it is a truly essential one for the modern world.
repeekad 1 days ago [-]
Technology Connections referred to this as “algorithmic complacency”, young people don’t like Bluesky because they have to decide for themselves what content to follow instead of a default algorithm feed
nazgulsenpai 1 days ago [-]
I use a similar argument to those who say that gaming is dead. Sure, if you're waiting for $AAA_DEVELOPER to change, it's probably dead, but you don't even have to look that far to find amazing games everywhere in indie and AA.
polothesecond 1 days ago [-]
Sadly indie developers are only just starting get into my preferred genre. I am excited to see how a number of upcoming titles turn out, but for the time I’m stuck waiting for $AAA_DEVELOPER to change.
I’ve had half the mind to just try my own hand at game dev again.
johnnyanmac 1 days ago [-]
Gaming feels dead to devs these days. But I know that's not what gamers care about.
throwaway0q5347 1 days ago [-]
> limited by no "platforms" but only by their own lack of desire.
Or Google's low ranking of their content
lstodd 1 days ago [-]
I don't even.
Relying on third-party ranking of whatever is a clear indicator of lack of effort.
StableAlkyne 1 days ago [-]
Short of developing psychic abilities, how would you then address the discoverability problem without relying on a third party?
Forums, search engines, social media, and link aggregators are all third parties with their own ranking. Nobody outside of a handful of small-web hobbyists have put a "cool links" section into a website since 1997.
BowBun 1 days ago [-]
This is classic engineering missing the forest for the trees.
The answer to your question is: same as we always did before! Do you talk to friends? Colleagues? Family? You definitely chat with us here on HN. All of these people share things with you constantly.
There's a funny obsession in tech circles to gather all the information they can as quick as possible. I much prefer to optimize for the quality of information I'm ingesting.
thaumasiotes 17 hours ago [-]
> The answer to your question is: same as we always did before! Do you talk to friends? Colleagues? Family? You definitely chat with us here on HN. All of these people share things with you constantly.
So, in your opinion, we can cut out the reliance on third parties by relying on third parties?
skydhash 1 days ago [-]
There’s always a relationship aspect in discoverability. Unless the set is small, there will always be intermediary nodes in that graph that will connect consumers and producers. But there’s no need for it to be a mega tech company. Radio DJs help with discovering musics. Books club can help with recommending books.
johnnyanmac 1 days ago [-]
Doesn't need to be, but most traffic is driven by search. I reckon 2nd most common is influencers, and I don't know if that's an upgrade (even easier to buy out).
toyg 14 hours ago [-]
Although I agree on the general point, it's technically not true that the internet is "still at open as it always was". Nation states are increasingly putting up barriers and filters, and (pushed by commercial interests) forcing people to identify themselves.
itsdesmond 1 days ago [-]
This is as good an argument as saying that Americans with unhealthy diets bear sole responsibility, ignoring the massive corporate efforts to convince them of the healthfulness of highly processed foods. While, obviously, individuals have ultimate responsibility for their actions, ignoring the concerted efforts to influence those actions through psychology, marketing/ads, paid “experts”, paid influencers and celebrities, lobbies, blah blah et cetera.
When I started using the internet, if I asked someone what the internet was I was unlikely to get any answer at all. It was new. I had to define it for myself. Ask a 6 year old what the internet is. It’s YouTube. TikTok. Roblox. Experiences that are designed to keep them there. It is obviously more difficult for an individual to engage with the open web than it ever has been (for those with access at all).
Barrin92 1 days ago [-]
>ignoring the concerted efforts to influence those actions
Ignorance isn't the point. The issue is that it's your responsibility to stop them. the buck always stops at "I". Are they just going to stop themselves? Is your neighbor going to stop them for you? If so, why should she if you don't?
As Kant said, enlightenment is getting out of your self inflicted tutelage. When is it self inflicted? When you have the reason but lack the courage to act without direction from someone else.
Yes, there's influencers and lobbies but the solutions are still one search away. Even Google doesn't hide the alternatives from you. And sure we can force feed every American veggies and force install linux on their computers but that'd defeat the point.
itsdesmond 21 hours ago [-]
People who are not aware of a topic are not lacking courage for not engaging in it. Being damned without awareness of salvation is more of a St. Augustine thing. And Kant said my ancestors were less than human, so fuck him.
Barrin92 20 hours ago [-]
>People who are not aware
who isn't aware? If we were in the 80s and you lived in a village without an internet connection, sure but today everyone is aware of the means to liberate their computing environment or whatever else is bugging them. That's not an excuse any more for virtually anyone. The average American spends, not metaphorically 'literally', actually literally five hours per day on their smartphone. If you can doom scroll for five hours you can learn how to use linux, or get on a treadmill to lose some pounds.
the reality is people have the option to choose between comfort and autonomy and they voluntarily choose the former and call people annoying who preach about internet freedom and privacy. Which they might very well be but it also makes it clear they know and don't care.
jrflowers 17 hours ago [-]
>the buck always stops at "I"
Wait if it is your responsibility to stop corporations from doing bad things, why are they still doing them?
I didn’t realize there was an individual to talk to about this but, while I’ve got your attention, frankly for the sake of mankind you need to do better at this. They are running wild out here
skydhash 1 days ago [-]
> It is obviously more difficult for an individual to engage with the open web than it ever has been (for those with access at all).
It’s very easy. If you’re a producer, you maintain a separate presence outside the walled platforms. If you’re a consumer, you look outside the walled platform for content.
itsdesmond 1 days ago [-]
Hey maybe I’m wrong, overthinking it. Maybe the problem is that simple. Maybe you can only see things simply. There’s simply no way to tell.
johnnyanmac 1 days ago [-]
>It’s very easy. If you’re a producer, you maintain a separate presence outside the walled platforms.
I want to try one day. Steam's pricing parity adds friction to that, though. I can't reward people for venturing to a place where they own their software, and that seems to be the only real way to move many.
Rapzid 22 hours ago [-]
I played quite a bit of OpenTTD a year or so ago and I'm pretty sure I downloaded it straight from their site.
jl6 1 days ago [-]
The open internet is a whisper in a screaming crowd. Yes, it’s technically still there.
iso1631 1 days ago [-]
I don't remember how I first heard about slashdot, but I know I discovered debian and enlightenment through it, and I would assume I discovered openttd through it.
Perhaps some comment on a forum or usenet somwhere. Or perhaps on a compuserve group. Or maybe someone else at school.
TO me, UT is a modern game -- probably the last FPS I bought (well Elite Force which I think was based on UT)
I was more of a DN3D person. Laptop and a desktop, connected via a serial cable, great fun. Computer gaming was far more social in the 90s.
adolph 7 hours ago [-]
Yeah, I never got into DN3D, maybe b/c it was Windows only? I might be misremembering, but I played UT on Mac with friends by setting up AppleTalk using rj11 adapters. My now-spouse called it the game before the game and it was perhaps more social than the actual game.
johnnyanmac 1 days ago [-]
That's why we need to reel in these platforms. The mobile ones are slowly starting to relent, but that's only the beginning.
bigyabai 23 hours ago [-]
The mobile ones only have one storefront. PC games distribution is a healthy and competitive market.
johnnyanmac 23 hours ago [-]
Healthier, yes. But there can be improvements. Steam still has a few more dials to tune down to truly make it fair.
devnotes77 1 days ago [-]
[dead]
999900000999 1 days ago [-]
This is beyond reasonable.
You can still download it for free outside of Steam.
If I make a Sonic fan game and Sega is like, you can keep it online, but just not on Steam, that’s nice.
In this situation you still have the option of playing it on Steam for a modest price
The alternative is the Nintendo route…
applfanboysbgon 1 days ago [-]
One alternative is the Nintendo route. Another is the Hololive route, wherein they started a publishing brand for indie fangames which they actively support and promote on an official Steam store page. Another example being Touhou, a one-man indie franchise with permissive commercial derivative works licensing, which has become a cultural phenomenon in Japan and to a lesser extent overseas thanks to an absolutely vibrant community that has made millions of fan illustrations, tens of thousands of albums, and thousands of fangames, hundreds of which are sold on Steam.
If megacorps would stop being stuck up their own ass and completely irrational about how they exercise their IP rights, they would actually be able to benefit massively from allowing their fan communities to flourish. The status quo doesn't have to be this shitty, and we don't necessarily need to give credit to companies who meet the incredibly low bar of "not Nintendo".
999900000999 1 days ago [-]
Steam is not the only way to play games.
Atari is very kind to say you can keep distributing a fan game, just not on a commercial storefront.
I don’t expect to see Sonic Fan games on Steam anytime soon. Even though Sega is one of the best publishers in this regard.
Now if OpenTDD said no , we’re leaving it on Steam for free ,Atari could probably contact Valve to get it delisted.
A compromise is not a loss. I’ve downloaded tons of applications and games without Steam holding my hand and somehow I’m ok. Although I do wish sandboxing solutions with better gpu support existed
eykanal 1 days ago [-]
Fully agree, and glad you posted this. Atari has no responsibility to the open source community, and indeed has every reason to push back against this effort. That they're willing to discuss things at all, and that they agree to help support the effort, is frankly astonishing and extremely kind-hearted.
20k 1 days ago [-]
At the same time, the open source community has absolutely no responsibility to make Atari profits here either. The outcome here is simply that open source is getting screwed over
It isn't kind hearted. Them trying to shut down openttd would lead to a gigantic clusterfuck that would hurt their sales. This is them trying to remove a direct competitor to them releasing a new game as much as possible, without generating community backlash - to maximise profits
These companies are not our friends
freehorse 1 days ago [-]
> open source is getting screwed over
It may have been "screwed over" if there was no access to the oss game. But you can still download the game from their website. They just do not want that these appear as competitors in steam/gog platforms, so they bundled the oss version. Both sides thought this was a reasonable resolution. Thus I don't see "screwing over" here.
philistine 23 hours ago [-]
Open source is a culture that includes its users. Open source is getting screwed over because at the first whiff of a capitalist losing a buck open source retreated and hid.
entropicdrifter 1 days ago [-]
And yet, they're also directly supporting the developers of OpenTTD via a donation and not giving them any legal harassment.
This is, at worst, a morally-neutral compromise that's far better than any worst-case scenario
singpolyma3 1 days ago [-]
"no responsibility" but they could have chosen not to intentionally hurt them
ndiddy 1 days ago [-]
Imagine if you were Atari. You've bought the rights to Transport Tycoon Deluxe from Chris Sawyer and want to sell the game up on Steam. Then you see OpenTTD (the exact same game except better in every way) also on Steam for free. What do you do?
applfanboysbgon 1 days ago [-]
In the first place, the game is 30 years old. If the world had a sane copyright regime, it would already be in the public domain. Nobody should be particularly entitled to buying abandoned 30-year-old IPs and squatting on them to collect rent. All the more so when there would be no rent to collect if not for the derivative work being literally the only thing keeping the IP alive.
But let's suppose I am Atari and I have for some reason proceeded with buying said abandonware without doing my research. Upon discovering OpenTTD, I would hire the guy behind OpenTTD to work on a commercial version, keeping OpenTTD free to play but perhaps with some cool monetized expansion pack that would not have been possible without giving the developer the funding they need to work on it. That way I am making an investment in actually adding value to the game, and rewarding the person who kept it alive and in turn earning community goodwill, instead of investing in a shortsighted attempt to collect rent that backfires massively.
freehorse 1 days ago [-]
> hire the guy behind OpenTTD
> commercial version
> monetized expansion
It is not clear to me whether turning (future evolutions of) OpenTTD commercial and monetising it is a preferable scenario for its community.
applfanboysbgon 1 days ago [-]
I think it could be beneficial for players, if having a passionate developer able to spend more time working on it allows them to make future evolutions significantly better than they could be in a world where the developer only has time to work on it passively. That said, I am generally a proponent of indie game developers being paid for their work, as an indie game developer myself, so my personal bias may certainly leaking be leaking into my evaluation :)
I'd note it also doesn't need to be done in a way that deprives players of any free future evolution. Paradox has a nice model for their games where they release expansion packs, where about half the content is part of a free update to the base game and half the content is paid. That would be perfectly suited for a case like this.
moggers123 24 hours ago [-]
I go "oops I probably should have realised that existed before I decided to purchase the rights to and re-release a 999999 year old game which already has a GPL clone/spiritual successor/something".
I then go "well why re-release this ancient game running in an emulator, when this exists?" and ask the core team of OpenTTD if they want to monetize their steam/GOG releases now that I can licence out the TTD IP to them and remove any remaining legal ambiguity (and recoup my """investment""" via revenue sharing).
And if they don't I take it as a learning experience (to do my homework before I buy IPs) and release my TTD-in-an-emulator on steam and GOG knowing full well that its probably not going to generate many sales. Maybe I add "hey just so you know there's this really cool modern source port you can get for free..." to the description and hope that I can generate some sales off of good boy points.
singpolyma3 23 hours ago [-]
You put it up for sale and hope nostalgia sells something for you aka the original plan.
This argument is like "you buy a McDonald's then realize there is a burger king across the road. What do you do?" Yes one is a clone of the other. But you don't get to just bulldoze the burger king.
rablackburn 23 hours ago [-]
Seems like a pretty clear case of caveat emptor
1 days ago [-]
ZeWaka 1 days ago [-]
The Dwarf Fortress route.
ApolloFortyNine 1 days ago [-]
>Additionally, as part of the discussions we held, Atari agreed to make a contribution towards the running costs of our server infrastructure. We are also extremely grateful for the many donations that have come in over the past few days from users - your support will help keep our services going, and it is deeply appreciated.
That's pretty cool of them.
charcircuit 1 days ago [-]
Without knowing the rev share it could be exploitative. If OpenTDD is being sold commercially Atari shouldn't be taking all the money from all the hard work that people have put into the project over the years.
singpolyma3 1 days ago [-]
It's clearly exploitative
Lammy 1 days ago [-]
Agreed. Effectively-nobody would be interested in buying it if it weren't for OpenTTD and all the improvements they've made over the years.
It's absurd that some company can buy up and profit from thirty-year-old formerly-abandonware, and that society have been collectively browbeaten into believing in the notion of “““intellectual property””” at all.
WarcrimeActual 1 days ago [-]
Thing is, they own it. They have every right to cease and desist, I assume, and haven't. That's generous compared to most companies reactions already.
JoshTriplett 1 days ago [-]
> Thing is, they own it.
No, they don't. They own the game data, and the original game engine. They don't own the reimplemented Open Source game engine.
OpenTTD did not have to do anything here. It sounds like they had a very positive interaction with Atari, in which Atari is providing them with some support and collaboration, and in exchange for that, OpenTTD agreed to formalize the requirement for "you need to own the original game data" by having people on game stores purchase the original game through them before getting OpenTTD through them.
That seems like a pretty reasonable approach. It should be held up as a good model for collaboration. But it shouldn't be treated as "they have every right to [demand a] cease and desist".
ApolloFortyNine 1 days ago [-]
Though it's no longer a clone, it literally was a clone when it first started (you were even supposed to supply your own totally legitimately acquired asset packs).
So it'd be pretty much impossible to claim the engine came about as a clean room implementation. And of course, even if maybe they could win a court case (honestly don't think they could) the mere threat of one would likely make openttd quit.
JoshTriplett 1 days ago [-]
> you were even supposed to supply your own totally legitimately acquired asset packs
I don't have the impression that OpenTTD encouraged or sanctioned obtaining those assets illegitimately. They talked about how to extract them from the original game that you owned.
TheCycoONE 22 hours ago [-]
CorsixTH requires Theme Hospital assets but we didn't clone or otherwise steal anything that we ship, we require you to supply the assets precisely because we aren't. I presume that's true of OpenTTD as well. In the United States copyright protection for games covers the art and text but not the rules and Oracle vs. Google established reimplentations being fair even when exposing the same api. Truely novel game rules can be protected by patents per Nintendo.
WarcrimeActual 1 days ago [-]
They do own it. Any court would likely agree that what OpenTTD does is copy an IP they own. And they'd have the right to C&D it.
JoshTriplett 1 days ago [-]
Reverse engineering for compatibility, and implementation of a compatible system (as long as you don't copy the original) are not just legal, they're explicitly legally protected in many jurisdictions. You'll get in serious trouble if you copy the original, but there is specific case law supporting things like emulators. See, for instance, Sony v Connectix and Sega v Accolade.
gmueckl 1 days ago [-]
But OpenTTD is explicitly a faithful copy of the original. It replicates the original product in appearance and behavior and is open about it. If you were to dig into source code history, mailing list archives, chat logs etc. I'm certain that you could find a lot of evidence to support this position.
JoshTriplett 1 days ago [-]
"Behavior" isn't copyrightable; it explicitly isn't, in fact.
To what extent did they copy "appearance" other than supporting the use of the original assets?
It is certainly possible that they didn't scrupulously maintain clean hands, but I wouldn't automatically assume that.
gmueckl 19 hours ago [-]
Show a set of random persons gameplay video clips from TTD and OpenTTD in its default settings and ask them which one of the two games they are watching. They'll be struggling.
It is about the entirety of the product, not its parts.
anthk 10 hours ago [-]
That's the point of game engine reimplementations, but again OpenTTD has no original TTD worlds.
Simcity 2000/3000 and Lincity-NG can look pretty close at a distance too, the same with FreeCIV and Civilization 2000.
If the issue it's due to the menu layout and such that can be set with ease, GUI presets from original TTD and a 'new' one (as default) and call it done.
Arx Fatalis itself it's a Ultima Underworld inspired clone. It's more than obvious. Deus Ex it's a weird Shadowrun retelling with better hacking depictions replacing the magic shadow ruling overlods with a panopticon AI and ripping off every US conspiracy from the XFiles.
Both RPG's can be played in pretty much the same way: half stealth/half run and gun depending on your mood, augmentations, hacking to retrieve useful info, doing secondary errands, the cyberpunk theme...
Halo does the same with Marathon and Bioshock borrows a lot from System Shock.
einr 1 days ago [-]
GNU’s Not Unix is explicitly a faithful copy of UNIX. It replicates the original product in appearance and behavior and is open about it.
Cthulhu_ 1 days ago [-]
It's... complicated; they own Transport Tycoon Deluxe, its code, its assets and its IP.
Back when OpenTTD first released, it was a decompile (?) of TTD that loaded the assets of the game itself. This was... legally dubious, since reverse engineering.
But over time they Ship of Theseus'd the game - all code rewritten from assembly to C/C++ (I don't know), open source asset packs, etc. It's still the same base game, same feel, etc but nothing of the original code or assets remain.
I don't know enough about IP law etc to judge whether Atari would have any leg to stand on in a court of law, but it would be Complicated to say the least.
beardsciences 1 days ago [-]
I'm glad that Atari was willing to compromise at all. I'm happy with the updated response, and hope that it helps others understand the nuance of the situation. Anyone can still go download the main release from the official site.
paxys 1 days ago [-]
How are people supposed to understand the "nuance of the situation" when they aren't even sharing it? What is the problem to begin with? Why can't both projects continue to exist independently?
striking 1 days ago [-]
The bundling might feel necessary from Atari's side because OpenTTD would compete with Atari's re-release on platforms like Steam and GoG (unlike on OpenTTD's website, where you're already at the end of the funnel for OpenTTD specifically and therefore Atari doesn't feel like they're losing a sale).
benoau 1 days ago [-]
The problem is copyright won't expire on the 1995 game until some time next century, while a French company that acquired Atari's name and copyrights 20 years ago is now asserting their exclusive rights over the IP.
limagnolia 23 hours ago [-]
Does OpenTTD contain any Atari IP? I thought it was completely re-written, and did not include any of the original game assets?
benoau 20 hours ago [-]
I don't think so but simply asserting their rights is complicated and expensive.
nemomarx 1 days ago [-]
OpenTTD started from the ip they now own, and it's possible Atari could try and prove that in court. I don't know if they would win, but why spend the legal fees here?
RGamma 1 days ago [-]
Until the IP is flipped to another owner and the final squeeze begins. Gotta mirror this.
MisterTea 2 hours ago [-]
> Some have suggested that we should have chosen to remove OpenTTD from Steam and GOG entirely, but that would have caused unnecessary disruption to the many thousands of people currently enjoying the game on these platforms, and would have potentially prevented new players from discovering the game in future.
Is there no way either platform can simply stop selling the game and de-list it from the store yet people who purchased it can continue to play uninterrupted?
paxys 1 days ago [-]
I'm sure I'm missing some context but what is Atari's role here exactly? Isn't OpenTTD an independent and fully legal project? What is Atari's basis for asking for a "compromise"?
Or is it just the case that the project maintainers got paid off?
legitster 1 days ago [-]
These are not people ripping off TTD to make a buck. If you absolutely love the game so much that you spent 20 years modding it, you're going to have some respect for the original and the publisher and are probably glad they are interested again.
I get that it's not the same Atari as it was 30 years ago. But I liken it to you being a Beatles cover band and the estate of John Lennon reaches out to you, you're going to treat them with some sort of respect.
altairprime 21 hours ago [-]
See also what happened with Tron 2.0, where Disney unexpectedly published a software patch 20 years later that obsoleted the community work necessary to get it running on modern Windows 10+. The community was ecstatic, not offended, that the IP owner had randomly decided to contribute. Sure, a lot of their work was either disrupted or nullified, but that's not someone 'ripping off' the community's investment — that's someone validating the community's investment. Given how other companies act, 'validation and cooperation' after a long drought of inattention is perhaps the least likely outcome here. It's so nice to see it.
(Of course, in an ideal world, companies would not be wholly inattentive to older properties — but that's basically unsolvable without economic-level solutions for the problems of capitalism, so I don't have any ideas specific to video games to offer.)
Closi 1 days ago [-]
Atari own all the IP and copyright.
While OpenTTD is open source, it's basis is really that the original game was reverse-engineered, originally using the original assets, and then rebuilt.
Also all the map data etc is owned by Atari, so you need to have a 'genuine' copy to access all the levels etc.
paxys 1 days ago [-]
What copyright? OpenTTD doesn't copy any code or assets from the original game. It is a ground-up rewrite. There is no copyright violation.
jorl17 1 days ago [-]
Note that, while it is a rewrite, it was done so through disassembling the original game, not via a clean room implementation. I find this particularly relevant given that the original was written (mostly) in assembly too.
Closi 1 days ago [-]
Also even if it is a ground up rewrite, the look and feel still matters.
Try creating a 1:1 dupe of a Hermes bag or a Rolex and see how their legal team reacts (even if you call it an OpenBirk)
20k 1 days ago [-]
Clean room reimplementations of software projects have been tested in court and are legally fine
ikiris 18 hours ago [-]
Software projects that do things like edit spreadsheets, transform data, do calculations, yes.
Software projects that are themselves a type of art that is itself copyrighted, lol no.
1 days ago [-]
anthk 1 days ago [-]
- OpenArena
- Chip's Challange and custom levels pack
- Freedoom+Blasmepher for Doom/Heretic
- LibreQuake
- Supertux2
- Oolite
- Kgoldminner/XScavenger with level sets
- Frozen Bubble
- Any X11/console/9front sokoban clone. Everyone reuses the same level set over and over.
Closi 15 hours ago [-]
This list might just be survivor bias though - it only includes the projects where they didn’t get sued and taken down (either because the developer was ok with them, or because they strayed far enough into fair use).
There are clear counter examples - see Tengen vs Nintendo, Nintendo vs Palworld, Microsoft vs halo inspired games, Microsoft vs Minecraft clones. Most are settled out court. Examples that go to court tend to be from companies with budgets to fight, lots of projects will just get DMCA’d and won’t fight, or will back down after a legal letter.
Ultimately copyright and IP infringement is decided in the courts, and the rules aren’t entirely black and white.
anthk 14 hours ago [-]
The actual list at https://osgameclones.com it's so huge that literally invalidates any point stated by HN commenters ignoring that, yes, Giana Sisters for the C64 was taken down but after that several Mario shareware clones existed for PC and a few years later we even got Supertux and, in the 2000's, Secret Maryo Chronicles which got renamed in order to avoid any issues with "Mario" as a TM, but the gameplay was 99% the same of Super Mario World.
On software recreating something propietary:
- FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD... vs AT&T Unix.
- GNU+Linux or GNU+Hurd against propietary Unix kernels.
- Coreutils+Findutils+Sharutils... every tool reimplemented being propietary.
- Bash, GAWK, GCC, binutils, Clisp, SBCL, GNU GCJ+Classpath,
Red, FreePascal+Lazarus, GNUStep+WMaker, LessTif, EMWM+Motif vs Irix' Maxx Desktop (still propietary, and from the 90's) Gaim, AMSN, 7zip,
Haxima+Nahzgul (and Ultima it's still being sold at GOG), Supertux2, Supertuxkart, ReTux (very Wario like), Hexoshi (Metroid), SMC (Super Mario World), Pingus (Lemmings), XMMS/Xine cloning WinAmp and maybe PowerDVD (Xine with skins), WordTsar for Wordstar, Nano for propietary Pico (and Alpine for propietary Pine), BSD vi and Amiga vim for maybe propietary vi under AT&T/commercial Unix, Lincity and Lincity-NG for Simcity, FreeCiv against Civilization (it can use both the OG Civ rules and their custom ones), Frozen Bubble (I think the level set it's from the Neo Geo release), KGoldrunner and such for Lode Runner, Kapman for Pacman, every BSD shipping Tetris and Boggle, GNU Octave for Matlab....
The list example for both software and games being just reimplementation/clones of propietary tools goes on an on. Even DOS had propietary clones which had to reimplement the same interface as MSDOS because if not the tools written for it would just crash. Same commands, same output, same formating tools, same memory layout, they ran the same DOS binaries and drivers...
Closi 4 hours ago [-]
Giving a list of examples doesn’t mean this example is legal or would stand up in court.
Other than the fact that most of these are very different situations, but even if they were the same it is like saying “snorting coccaine is legal because I can give a list of celebrities that have done it and have not been arrested”
The examples that are similar - eg FreeCiv, imo probably survive because of the decisions and polices of the original publisher rather than some magical legal protection which allows you to make 1:1 copies without being sued.
TuxRacer isn’t really a copy of anything, and an OS or computer utility will likely be treated in a materially different way to a computer game by a court of law.
anthk 3 hours ago [-]
No, your example can't stand out a simple analysis since both GNU and BSD reimplemented propietary UNIX without the original code, as the OpenTTD rewrite is. How come OpenTTD works on a G4 PowerPC arch if the original code was written in x86 assembly?
GNU AWK it's literally copycat of Unix AWK having all of the functionality of the original AWK without being bound to the original source. So is GCC vs any vendored Unix 'cc', 'ld' and 'as', where GNU GAS was the alternative.
Again, there's GNU Bash against Unix SH, with the same exact flags for interoperativity. Ditto with Alpine against Pine, or GNU Nano against Pico with the literal same interface, commands and layout. And these are older than TTD itself.
Should I go in? Lesstif against Motif. If you installed Lesstif tons of Motif stuff would work straightly as is, as XPDF did. Another one? XMMS. Once you skinned both the were the same.
anthk 1 days ago [-]
[flagged]
dang 1 days ago [-]
Please don't cross into personal attack on HN. You can make your substantive points without that.
The fact that these exist does not mean that they're immune from legal challenge. If the original creators wanted to sue, there are all kinds of claims that would have a decent shot in court (e.g. trademark, trade dress, design patents) besides "you copied our copyrighted source code." The clones exist more because people are being cool about it, and because there's not a strong economic incentive to challenge them. Those things can change at any time.
anthk 1 days ago [-]
Sony vs Bleem. They already lost this case in court.
comex 1 days ago [-]
That was a very different case.
Out of the two claims, the only one that made it to appeals court was about whether it was fair use for Bleem to use screenshots of PS1 games to advertise its emulator (which was compatible with those games). The Ninth Circuit decided it was. But that's not relevant here.
The other claim was more relevant, as it was an unfair competition claim that apparently had something to do with Bleem's reimplementation of the PS1 BIOS. But the district court's record of the case doesn't seem to be available online, and the information I was able to find online was vague, so I don't know what exactly the facts or legal arguments were on that claim. Without an appeal it also doesn't set precedent.
If there were a lawsuit over OpenTTD, it would probably be for copyright infringement rather than unfair competition, and it would probably focus more on fair use and copyrightability. For fair use, it matters how much something is functional versus creative. The PS1 BIOS is relatively functional, but a game design and implementation are highly creative. On the other hand, despite being creative, game mechanics by themselves are not copyrightable. So it might come down to the extent to which OpenTTD's code was based on the reverse-engineered original code, as opposed to being a truly from-scratch reimplementation of the same mechanics. Visual appearance would also be relevant. Oracle v. Google would be an important precedent.
anthk 14 hours ago [-]
FreeBSD, NetBSD and OpenBSD at first when every BSD OS was just part of 386BSD it used to have AT&T code. That code was rewritten replacing every propietary part and after that (and noticing BSD 4.4 was incomplete) we got clean FreeBSD, NetBSD and OpenBSD from a NetBSD fork.
Another similar case with exact grounds was GNU which with Linux it completed an OS albeit in a hacky way, because the original OS would have been GNU+Hurd, but both are reimplementing Unix. Same SH derived shell, but extended. Kinda like OpenTTD. We have GNU Coreutils, Findutils, GNU AWK reimplementing and extending AWK (even when AWK was propietary), GNU Zip, Tar... the list goes on and on.
Oh, another one: Lesstif vs Motif. Same UI, if not very, very close to Motif 1.2 in order to be interoperable. Today it doesn't matter because nearly a decade a go Motif was relicensed into the GPL, but tons of libre software depending on propietary Motif was just seamlessly running with LessTIF libraries except for some rough edges/bugs. One of the most known example was DDD, a GUI for GDB.
1 days ago [-]
InsideOutSanta 1 days ago [-]
I think I'm even older than you, because I remember what Nintendo did to the Great Giana Sisters.
anthk 14 hours ago [-]
And later the DOS PC world spawned several Mario clones as legal shareware.
haunter 1 days ago [-]
Good luck making an open source Pokemon game clone and see how it goes
anthk 14 hours ago [-]
Tuxemon. And before that, several more a few decades ago.
Ekaros 1 days ago [-]
It might be improved and changed in many ways. But I have zero doubt it would not lose in court any argument over copyrights. Most reasonable people would tell that it looks way too close to original. And that would probably be enough.
Macha 1 days ago [-]
There's two issues:
1. OpenTTD is not a clean room rewrite. It started by disassembling the original game and manually converting to C++ on a piecemeal basis.
2. As the game was updated, sure lots of this code has been rewritten. Almost certainly the majority. But has all of it been legally rewritten? Ehh... much less clear.
This sort of process has generally been held to produce a derived work of whatever you're cloning, even if the final result no longer contains original code, hence why clean room reverse engineering even became a thing in the first place.
It's probably fuzzy enough at this stage that you could have a long expensive drawn out legal battle about it (and I suspect we'll see at least one for some other project in the coming years with the recent trend of "I had AI rewrite this GPL project to my MIT licensed clone"). Would OpenTTD win? Who knows. Could OpenTTD afford it? Certainly not.
mghackerlady 1 days ago [-]
Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't BSD in a similar legal limbo for a while? In that case wouldn't there be precedent for such projects to be legally fine so long as they've existed long enough and been heavily modified?
Macha 21 hours ago [-]
BSD was resolved by a settlement of BSD dropping a handful of disputed files and mutual copyright acknowledgement after it was determined that the company suing them also infringed in BSD’s copyright, so as precedent it’s pretty inconclusive
not_the_fda 1 days ago [-]
Its not a clean ground-up rewrite. They dis-assembled the original binaries into assembly and started from there.
sylos 1 days ago [-]
I read somewhere that it's not a clean room rewrite but rather it started off as a reverse engineering.
1 days ago [-]
iso1631 1 days ago [-]
If I were to create a new game from the ground up, with new artistic assets, and not an LLM in sight, with the characters of Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader playing around on the Millenium Falcon, I would be breaching copyright.
I'm not sure if look and feel of a game like Transport Tycoon can be copyrighted, but I wouldn't like to be against it.
(I remember buying Transport Tycoon from I think Beatles, in Altrincham. I clearly remember riding on the front seat of the bus upstairs on my way to Flixton back in 1994 reading the manual)
1 days ago [-]
ikiris 1 days ago [-]
It seems you don't understand copyright. The entire game is copyrighted. Not just the specific sprites.
You can see the same effect if someone were to make a yellow short guy with metal claws and regeneration as a character.
hrmtst93837 1 days ago [-]
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hrmtst93837 1 days ago [-]
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designerarvid 1 days ago [-]
Reproducing someone’s intellectual property and publishing it is exactly what constitutes a copyright violation.
You can retype someone’s book with your keyboard, it’s still not yours.
Sharlin 1 days ago [-]
Reproducing the surface behavior of a program, no matter how faithfully, is not in itself copyright violation if it's a cleanroom implementation. But int this case it's not to write the new one, the developers studied (and manually translated to C++) the original code, not just the program's behavior. So this is more of a case of a derived work, like a translation of a novel.
And Sony vs Bleem (or the IBM BIOS reimplementation) already set a precedent so that doesn't really matter anymore. Look at Wine. Or Exegutor. Or DOSBox.
All of them totally legal reimplementing either prior look and feel and functionality.
iso1631 1 days ago [-]
> The code of computer programs are excluded from design protection, but visual aspects of software are very commonly protectable as long as they are ‘new’ (i.e. not a direct copy of anything that has come before) and possess ‘individual character’ (i.e. that the design produces a different ‘overall impression’ than anything that has come before)
I'm no expect, but Chris Sawyer style games certainly provided a unique overall impression to me. Whether it needs to be a registered design or not I couldn't say, but it's not going to be cheap to find out.
More recent battles have relied on Trademark and Patent law rather than Copyright, but "Look and Feel" is still a legal grey area
anthk 14 hours ago [-]
Wine literally copies both the Win32 UI -needed to respect that for interop- , some of the kernel functions and Win32 which is just an API implementation and not copyrighteable per se. If not, we woudn't have GNU. Or Microsoft services for Unix.
orphea 1 days ago [-]
Reproducing is absolutely not a copyright violation. Otherwise emulators would have no legal option to exist.
designerarvid 1 days ago [-]
That is a question about which copyrights are enforced. Different question.
ErroneousBosh 1 days ago [-]
An emulator is not a reproduction of the thing it emulates.
lstodd 1 days ago [-]
What levels? TTD, Open or no has no levels, only a map generator, and you seriously don't want to try the reimplementation of the original one.
Cthulhu_ 1 days ago [-]
While Atari holds the rights to Transport Tycoon, I'd argue that at this point taking OpenTTD down would be a huge footgun; like Nintendo with emulators, they can also buy / license the engine and re-release the game on modern platforms under its official name.
kabdib 1 days ago [-]
I really wonder who "Atari" is these days . . .
Cthulhu_ 1 days ago [-]
Currently (and for the past 25 odd years) it's a brand owned by a French holding company called Atari SA, formely known as Infogrames.
LoganDark 1 days ago [-]
Atari probably threatened to take it down if there wouldn't be a compromise. So a compromise was worked out that wouldn't require a takedown.
lstodd 1 days ago [-]
Pretty much this. No one was interested in playing corporate games, and Steam/GoG isn't that important anyway.
mhitza 1 days ago [-]
The initial post has omitted any reason for the change. Of course people would speculate, including in the HN comments.
What seemed majority at the time was the idea of some collaboration/partnership and monetary exchange.
I think its a good lesson in communication, especially when you have a dedicated community. Transparency is welcome.
Regarding Atari and "their rights", there hasn't been an Atari for way too long and the IP was passed between companies left and right without additive value to users. I expect transport tycoon to be another cash grab, but happy to be surprised for the better.
maybewhenthesun 1 days ago [-]
Atari being the commercial firm it is, I could very well imagine that stuff was under NDA. Just 'by default', because that's what the lawyers like. And only when angry speculations emerged they could be persuaded to just openly communicate.
Or the OpenTTD guys were not the best communicators. Considering it's the OpenTTD creators live at the intersection of the groups 'programmers' and 'adults who like to play with train sets' it wouldn't be a stretch.
All in all I think this collaborative approach is very much the preferred outcome.
All those people saying 'the open web is dead' and 'people don't download from websites anymore' are exaggerating imo.
yellowapple 1 days ago [-]
In situations like this it's odd to me that the rightsholder wouldn't just sell an official build of the FOSS reimplementation with the assets (legally) included. If some of the proceeds end up going toward the FOSS reimplementation's donations then it seems like an easy win-win.
sho_hn 1 days ago [-]
There are actually cases this has happened in (e.g. re-releases using ScummVM under the hood; id basing products on community source ports, etc.), but it's not always that simple.
Chris Sawyer as creator for example is known to have particular opinions on this as I recall, and if you e.g. look over to film making there's also a hot debate over preserving original artistic intent and original creations over later remasters. OpenTTD is more than a maintenance upgrade, it's a continuation and a different game.
Honestly I think it's probably just OK what Atari has done here. Monetizing the original assets is well in their rights both legally and morally (especially considering e.g. royalities to Chris), OpenTTD remains available everywhere, they're monetarily supporting OpenTTS, gamers will find it.
Note that once a commercial company decides to ship a FOSS project, they also are much more invested in potentially controlling its direction to different ends. This setup keeps OpenTTD community-run and independent, free to make decisions independent of a commercial agenda. This also feels worth protecting.
bombcar 1 days ago [-]
Another example is Heroes III with VCMI and HotA and other similar things. Some are attempts to do a bug-for-bug "vanilla" recreation, others expand on it in defined ways, still others add new features "in the spirit" of the original.
When you get to the last, you can definitely see how the original creator/artists could disagree.
bluejay2387 7 hours ago [-]
This looks like one of the rare instances where a company tried to balance their commercial interests with the interest of the fans of their products. I don't see why people would be complaining?
NietTim 1 days ago [-]
I am very happy that this long stand grey area licensing situation around something I enjoy deeply has been resolved in what seems like the most perfect way possible
I wonder how many players won't be affected by its Steam disappearance.
Similar issue with other heavy modded games, such as Kerbal Space Program. The best way to handle multiple saves with different modpacks is multiple game installations, which is against the grain for the Steam version.
jwitthuhn 1 days ago [-]
So they were not "pressured" but Atari contacted them and they proceeded to make this decision based because they "needed to balance Atari’s commercial interests".
That sound indistinguishable from being pressured.
freehorse 1 days ago [-]
Reaching compromises with others is part of life. If the question is whether a copyright from 1995 should hold in this case, I would say no. But the world is sometimes not as we may want it to be. So taking that for granted, this seems like a very reasonable and mature resolution.
singpolyma3 1 days ago [-]
Indeed. It sounds like they were further pressured to say they were not being pressured.
JoshTriplett 1 days ago [-]
The types of folks who make reimplemented game engines often do it as a labor of love towards the original. And the best companies often have great appreciation for their modding communities and preservationists. (Witness the good collaborations between some companies and SCUMMVM, for instance.) This may well have been a conversation that was entirely reasonable and respectful.
singpolyma3 23 hours ago [-]
I just can't believe that given the outcome and the wording of the posts from the project. If there was respect here there would have been no threats. If there were no threats there would be no talk of "balancing commercial interests"
IshKebab 1 days ago [-]
I think they're saying Atari didn't threaten them but they both understood that they could have. Honestly it sounds like Atari were trying to be nice. Like "you technically aren't allowed to do that, and we could just set our lawyers on you, but we'd like to not do that while also making money on our re-release".
This seems like a perfectly reasonable compromise to me.
singpolyma3 1 days ago [-]
How is "I haven't talked to my lawyer yet but you know I could" not a threat/pressure?
NietTim 1 days ago [-]
There is no reason to assume they said that and all the reason to assume they didn't say that.
IshKebab 1 days ago [-]
In the same way that "you kids aren't allowed to skate here, but maybe if you do it over there I could just turn around and not notice you" isn't a threat.
singpolyma3 23 hours ago [-]
"you kids can't skate here" is the threat part.
IshKebab 9 hours ago [-]
That's just stretching the definition of "threat" beyond its normal meaning.
If I tell my kids "it's bedtime" is that a threat?
singpolyma3 8 hours ago [-]
If they say "no" are you gonna let them stay up?
If not then it may not be a literal threat but it contains the implied threat
1313ed01 1 days ago [-]
After installing TTD from GOG I panicked a bit, not seeing any DOSBox or DOS files. For a moment I thought it was files from an old Windows 95 version only, but there was (also) a DOS installer (INSTALL.EXE). I ran that, went through all the usual steps (select Sound Blaster IRQs and so on) and now I can run it from my virtual (git-managed) DOS disk install directory where I install all my DOS games and applications. Next to the original TT that I installed a few months ago from an old CD-ROM. For completeness.
What kind of question is 'Others?' is doesn't even make any sense. It just pisses me off.
dang 19 hours ago [-]
I'll happily explain it if you'll agree to stop making accounts to break HN's rules with.
(You're welcome here personally. We just want you to respect the intended use of the site.)
swiftcoder 14 hours ago [-]
This feels like absolute best-case scenario for an open-source clone interacting with a rights holder looking to re-release the original. Really glad to see their willingness to work together, instead of just torpedoing the open-source project
mikkupikku 1 days ago [-]
Seems reasonable to me. Back when I started playing OpenTTD, about 20 years ago, you had to provide your own data files from your ostensibly legal copy of TTD. They changed that after they started distributing free alternative graphics, but to be frank the strict legal status of both OpenTTD and OpenRCT2 has always seemed mildly dubious to me, on account of both projects being based off disassembled code. Atari is being fairly reasonable and gentlemenly about this.
halo 1 days ago [-]
Wonder if the reaction would be the same if Wine was conditional on buying a license to Windows.
danparsonson 23 hours ago [-]
Wine is not a full reimplementation of Windows, so not an analogous situation.
TobTobXX 1 days ago [-]
Well IF Microsoft would also collaborate with Wine...
I think I'd pay for a Windows License if it means I get official support for Windows apps on Linux (provided the support is indeed good).
rvnx 1 days ago [-]
Perhaps it is time for the law to evolve so softwares that are abandoned for x years become public domain (like Epic Pinball, Age of Empires, etc)
joemi 23 hours ago [-]
Isn't it already like that, more or less, but the length of time it takes is longer than any software has so far existed?
samrus 24 hours ago [-]
you know, given that i've often said "if youre getting it for free, your the product" i am ok with this
its not really possible for the rights holder to compete with a free product, since they arent harvesting data or oxploiting the userbase, so they need to charge. and openTTD getting a cut of the money really does show that this is fully collaborative
Lammy 1 days ago [-]
> a compromise would be needed to balance Atari’s commercial interests (which of course they are entitled to pursue as the rights holder)
No, fuck 'em. They had nothing to do with developing the game, and in a sane copyright structure a thirty-year-old work would be public domain by now.
blizdiddy 1 days ago [-]
Agreed. Publishers need to be knocked off this absurd moral high ground. If merely being rich is enough for me to profit off of Miles Davis songs for decades after his death, copyright is just another wealth redistribution to the rich. Steal all the games and music, and any ghoul that claims I’m stifling creativity can compare their compositions to mine.
maybewhenthesun 1 days ago [-]
> in a sane copyright structure
You are not wrong. But alas we don't have that. ANd in the reality we live in this collaboration is way better than the alternative.
blizdiddy 1 days ago [-]
We know what the law is… the law is bullshit.
Is it easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism?
maybewhenthesun 23 hours ago [-]
No. Or maybe yes (with the current US government the end of the world is quite easy to imagine... )
But what I can imagine has very little to do with what actually happens.
AndrewDucker 1 days ago [-]
What you can imagine has very little to bear on what they can get away with without being legally shut down.
passivegains 1 days ago [-]
I mean, yeah. There's enough nukes locked and loaded around the globe to end human civilization as we know it in minutes. Nobody's made a bomb that can fix socioeconomics.
Aurornis 1 days ago [-]
> They had nothing to do with developing the game
OpenTTD started as an effort to translate the original game’s assembly into higher level code.
It was not a clean room implementation. The original code was used as a base.
Lammy 1 days ago [-]
Who gives a shit? It's from 1995 and nu-Atari had nothing to do with it.
AndrewDucker 1 days ago [-]
Copyright from 1995 has not expired.
Lammy 1 days ago [-]
And now we have looped back around to my original comment. I'll give you a moment to scroll up and read it again.
Dylan16807 1 days ago [-]
Well, they shouldn't be entitled but they are entitled.
WarcrimeActual 1 days ago [-]
But it's not and we don't live in fantasy land. Your approach would have it shut down tomorrow.
c12 1 days ago [-]
In a world full of Nintendos, be Atari.
CivBase 1 days ago [-]
> we have not been “pressured” by Atari to make these changes.
> Atari approached us to explain their plans for the Transport Tycoon Deluxe re-release, and what it might mean for OpenTTD.
> we understood that a compromise would be needed to balance Atari’s commercial interests […] against the availability of a free, well-developed evolution of the game.
Sounds to me like you were pressured by Atari to make these changes.
calibas 1 days ago [-]
Everyone's being diplomatic, including most of the HN comments.
This seems to be the simplest compromise, and allows OpenTTD to continue existing without too many problems from Atari, so people don't want to make waves.
1 days ago [-]
NietTim 1 days ago [-]
There is no way not to, OpenTTD has 0 cards to play since everything is explicitly build on IP that is not theirs, and they know it. They were "not pressured" because Atari didn't utter threats to them, it didn't need to come to that because the OpenTTD people were reasonable, and so was Atari.
Not sure why so many commenters are failing to grasp this.
speefers 1 days ago [-]
[dead]
shevy-java 1 days ago [-]
Would be nice to see OpenTTD on Steam/GOG, for a younger audience.
Some games have a good replayfactor. Transport Tycoon Deluxe was nice in this regard; the spirit should be retained so younger folks can play it.
zeeshdev2887 1 days ago [-]
[dead]
junaru 1 days ago [-]
Atari is releasing an inferior product and needs the superior community one delisted. The remaster cannot compete, simple as.
ethanrutherford 1 days ago [-]
it is neither being delisted, nor was it requested to be. As far as rights holders exercising their rights, this is about the most collaborative way it could have gone. Not every rights holder is a John Carmack.
WarcrimeActual 1 days ago [-]
[flagged]
nubinetwork 1 days ago [-]
> please be nice to Atari
You're not my mom...
maCDzP 1 days ago [-]
Now with AI I wonder if it’s possible to just let agents build a perfect emulation of the game. It reminds me of fuzzers. You let the agent go loose on the game and it brute forces every possible state. Then recreates the code. It’s very inefficient- but it probably works.
nemomarx 1 days ago [-]
Why would you when an open source version already exists?
einr 1 days ago [-]
You’re going to brute force every possible state of a sandbox building game. See you on the other side of the heat death of the universe; hope you stocked up on Claude Code credits.
Society has become quite 'entitled' to 'free' things. As popular as they are, torrents and free streams and emulation and clones of games in an open source lib are all stealing something. I know thats an unpopular thing to say but it a fact.
Now, those rights violations viewed in a larger context may change one's opinion on the whole, and I'm not jumping into that debate today.
Atari did a cool thing. That's rare in the corporate world today. Give praise where it's deserved.
Emulators and game engine clones may encourage "stealing", but they are also unique creations. The people who develop said software are typically careful about keeping their software separate from copyrighted materials. In the case of OpenTTD, they did so by creating their own graphics and sound assets to accompany the game engine.
If you are claiming that creating an independent clone of the game engine is stealing, you are entitled to your own opinion. But do understand that it is an opinion and not a fact.
I would also ask you to consider the consequences if that opinion were codified into law. It would make all forms of progress (e.g. literary and technical) nearly impossible since nearly all ideas are derivative. To give an example: the computing landscape would be very different. IBM compatibles would not have been a thing, leaving the market either fragmented or consolidated in the hands of a single company. Oh sure, there were companies that did steal by producing verbatim copies of the IBM PC ROM or the mainboard layout ... but we are talking about a reimplementation in the case of IBM compatibles and OpenTTD, not copies.
Come to think of it, the entire computer industry would have been set back by decades with an excessively strong IP regime. No one seriously classifies the ABC as the first computer, yet the courts used it to strike down patents on early computers. In the early days, IBM played games with IP licensing to try to restrict their competition, something the courts shot down. AT&T didn't give away Unix, nor did they license patents on transistors out of the goodness of their heart. They did so because regulators and the courts recognized that IP could be used to stifle competition (and, by extension, it would have inhibited progress). So I doubt that the courts would agree on emulation or game engine clones being stealing either.
Update, I got openTTD confused with openRCT, It looks like openttd did redo the graphics and sound, so I think the parent post is correct and atari has little to no legal ground to stand on, the only thing they could reasonably claim is trademark, that is, it is them using the name transport tycoon that is the problem. And that is still not theft, it is trademark infringement.
At this point I would like to plug Simutrans a transport tycoon clone that actually took the effort to make their own graphics and sound. But really, as much as I enjoy simutrans any normal transport tycoon connoisseur will hate it, a bit too different and clunky for them.
https://www.simutrans.com but steam is probably the easiest way to play.
1) No, is not the case, stop the FUD.
2) Simutrans it's half propietary and a good atempt of SPAM, dear friend.
3) Ok, fair, you corrected yourself. But on OpenTTD the OpenSFX and the rest are actually a way to create both compatible graphics and sounds with the existing MODs and stand out as themselves, kinda like FreeDoom: it's obviously made to be compatible with the Doom assets for walls and the like, but the artwork it's closer to a modern HL than Doom. FreeDoom needs to be like a weird Doom in a parallel universe for floors, walls and the like because PWADs demand it so the art looks like compatible (texturing, tiling, lightning) while not being an obvious Doom rip off. And yet it does, I played lots of classic Doom2 compatible PWADs and TC's and the FreeDoom assets perfectly blend ingame. Strain.wad looks even greater.
Look: https://freedoom.github.io/
But, at the same time, I find it interesting that "emulations and clones" are considered entitlement (in a derogatory sense), but copyright protection is not. Before 1976 in the US, the _maximum_ copyright term was 56 years, and that would require filing for an extension from the default of _only 28 years_.
I think it's easy to forget that copyright as we know it is not set in stone. Historically, after 28 years, most works became public domain and that meant you could do literally whatever you want with it and it would not be legally stealing at all. I think we as a society have forgotten what it means to have a public domain.
Sony Computer Entertainment v. Connectix Corp.
> The object code of a program may be copyrighted as expression, 17 U.S.C. § 102(a), but it also contains ideas and performs functions that are not entitled to copyright protection. See 17 U.S.C. § 102(b).
These corporations have actually gone to court over this and lost. It's just that they technically won by bankrupting their opponents via legal costs.
Historically, all works were public domain at all times.
It's not illegal to create a compatible game engine. The functional ideas inside the games are not protected by copyright. So long as games are clean room reverse engineered there should be no problem.
Actually, even if the reverse engineering was not clean room, it might not be a problem.
Sony Computer Entertainment v. Connectix Corp.
> The object code of a program may be copyrighted as expression, 17 U.S.C. § 102(a), but it also contains ideas and performs functions that are not entitled to copyright protection. See 17 U.S.C. § 102(b).
> Object code cannot, however, be read by humans.
> The unprotected ideas and functions of the code therefore are frequently undiscoverable in the absence of investigation and translation that may require copying the copyrighted material.
> We conclude that, under the facts of this case and our precedent, Connectix's intermediate copying and use of Sony's copyrighted BIOS was a fair use for the purpose of gaining access to the unprotected elements of Sony's software.
I don't think this has been tested in court, but the recent flood of Nintendo game decompilations is likely to change that.
Current OpenTTD has no former TTD code since decades ago. I remember Solene@ from OpenBSD (now ex-user) playing OpenTTD for MacPPC (PowerPC G4) a few years ago as she had in issue with mouse input.
Good luck running decompiled X86 code as is.
This is an unpopular opinion because it is not, in fact, a fact.
If you're going that far, aren't proprietary games and software "stealing" open source libs too? I think your definition is a bit wonky.
If Ars Libertatis was complete they should have to create their own complete underground story replacing every asset and lore by hand, kinda like FreeDoom/Blasphemer and so on.
An actual libre engine reusing propietary data in a illegal way would be uMario, as it has literal ripped off BMP images pixel per pixel depicting SMB for the NES. And yet the game engine being GPL or MIT would be legal but the bundled game data is not; the creator would just have to use (and state the clear CC licenses) the copyleft artwork from Secret Maryo Chronicles or whatever it's being called today and everything would work as is.
Instead of Mario you would reuse SMC sprites being adapted for the contraints (pixel perfect for feet for instance) and so and the only issue would be that the levels themselves would be copyrighted.
A single level as Supertux2 does is not a copyright issue because well, it's just a single one and a clear homage to the first level of SMB and even the level is named like that. It might fall under fair use, if I were Nintendo I woudn't sue them because unlike uMario, Supertux2 did things in a respectful manner.
Bear in mind that OpenTTD never did what uMario it's doing. When it had no open content you had to point to the copyrighted data yourself, be from the demo, be from the full game. Later OpenGFX and OpenSFX were created to replace every commercial asset and now OpenTTD has a downloader to get all the CC assets yourself without needing no commercial data at all.
The open content doesn't even have the original levels from TTD as uMario does.
I've gained huge respect for Atari. It's a breath of fresh air compared to the likes of EA, Nintendo, Square Enix.
If it would have been, then there's probably an inconsistency somewhere.
You can make that argument, but you need to actually do so and not just leave it unsaid.
People who merely buy stuff to extract rent from it are, at best, a necessary evil. There's nothing admirable in rentseeking behavior. It's just playing the game.
If we're hanging around a campfire in the paleolithic, the guy who figured out how to make beer is going to be everyone's best friend. The guy who won't let anybody drink from the stream because it's "his" is liable to meet an unfortunate end.
Copyright being as extremely long as it is makes us think that making something once means we should profit from it in perpetuity, but that's not really beneficial for society to work like that. That's exactly why patents don't work like that.
Remember, the purpose of copyright is to encourage the creation of new works. Well, if you can create one work and profit from it effectively (i.e., your entire career), why would you create another work? That's just a waste of effort. That's literally the business model of IP holding companies. They don't create. They just own. They're rent-seeking.
Nothing about OpenTTD has changed. You can literally just go download it off their website for free - same as it was 20 years ago. And you can add it to your Steam library just fine. It's only been on the Steam store for 5 of those years.
But the open internet is dead now and just being "de-merchandised" from a platform feels like being relegated to the dark web (maybe something the open source community doesn't quite fully appreciate).
That's cumbersome. The main benefit of platforms is comfort. Steam takes care of installation and updating, while often also offers some access with the community. Open internet has more choice and liberty, but for the price of more work and annoyance.
That the main reason why all big platforms succeed and the small platforms fail. Comfort is just too valuable.
Steam succeeded because of its store, which still has the best prices on the market. That’s their original moat. Their current moat is sunk costs. People have thousands of dollars in their Steam Library. At this point Steam’s advantages as software are negligible, especially considering its poor performance.
Then how come epic games store is not able to get a foothold for years despite offering literally free games? Not even children which are most likely to use it because of Fortnite use it for anything but that. Steam is objectively the better store and game launcher regardless or price or "sunk cost".
Nothing cumbersome about it. No one who wants to do this is going to fail at it, or even be inconvenienced.
> That the main reason why all big platforms succeed and the small platforms fail. Comfort is just too valuable.
The value of the platform, in this case, is that people know where it is, but they don't know where openTTD is.
Since there was an internet to speak of, there always were and still are vast amounts of people unaware of stuff that exists, limited by no "platforms" but only by their own lack of desire.
Of course there will be some ways like social media or something else. But that question is what seems to worry many people in our case, in my humble opinion. Remember that most of the planet's population is not even aware of existence of open-source projects and open-source concept itself. So how are they supposed to discover it if they don't know about it? When it's present on platforms like Steam and GOG, it helps to spread the word, but when it's not... Well, I guess that seems to be a problem for some people.
Presumably, through social interaction with others in the communities they are a part of. That's how I heard about OpenTTD in the early 00s, at least.
You're asking a leading question. The verb you're using here is one specifically indicating interaction with a "platform" (a digital aggregation of information). The answer is you don't search anything, you completely change your epistemic and interaction model. Instead you build a social web of people who have their own social webs, and you share things you've made and things that have been shared with you. This is your "platform".
How are most games on steam found? I kinda doubt all people find them through steam own mechanisms. I even doubt the majority find them this way. Gaming has multiple sources of information, be it news, social media, influencers or cooperations. Video-content is probably the biggest source of being discovered for most games these days.
This question tickles me. In the before time, something would be so good you were compelled to tell someone about it.
Sriracha, Costco are brands you likely know that dont advertise, and somehow got popular. In the 90's there were bands that were massively popular with little to no air play, and less promotion (Fugazi is a great example).
This was a Costco ad https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7i5CQVfmx-0
My introduction to their Sriracha was in 1994, when the Puerto Rican cook at the Italian restaurant I worked at sent me to Stop and Shop for the "rooster".
Till hosing their relationship with Underwood Ranch (their sole provider of chili's) this was the only product in the marketplace (much like ketchup was always Heinz for a time). Absolute market dominance wrecked over not honoring your handshake deal with your ONLY supplier.
The latest batches by them are green, and no one wants them. The underwood version of the product is taking over --- it has a giant dragon on the bottle now, and what I look for now rather than the rooster.
It's not like you can discover it on Steam any easier.
Of course, searching for information itself is also a skill, but it is a truly essential one for the modern world.
I’ve had half the mind to just try my own hand at game dev again.
Or Google's low ranking of their content
Relying on third-party ranking of whatever is a clear indicator of lack of effort.
Forums, search engines, social media, and link aggregators are all third parties with their own ranking. Nobody outside of a handful of small-web hobbyists have put a "cool links" section into a website since 1997.
The answer to your question is: same as we always did before! Do you talk to friends? Colleagues? Family? You definitely chat with us here on HN. All of these people share things with you constantly.
There's a funny obsession in tech circles to gather all the information they can as quick as possible. I much prefer to optimize for the quality of information I'm ingesting.
So, in your opinion, we can cut out the reliance on third parties by relying on third parties?
When I started using the internet, if I asked someone what the internet was I was unlikely to get any answer at all. It was new. I had to define it for myself. Ask a 6 year old what the internet is. It’s YouTube. TikTok. Roblox. Experiences that are designed to keep them there. It is obviously more difficult for an individual to engage with the open web than it ever has been (for those with access at all).
Ignorance isn't the point. The issue is that it's your responsibility to stop them. the buck always stops at "I". Are they just going to stop themselves? Is your neighbor going to stop them for you? If so, why should she if you don't?
As Kant said, enlightenment is getting out of your self inflicted tutelage. When is it self inflicted? When you have the reason but lack the courage to act without direction from someone else.
Yes, there's influencers and lobbies but the solutions are still one search away. Even Google doesn't hide the alternatives from you. And sure we can force feed every American veggies and force install linux on their computers but that'd defeat the point.
who isn't aware? If we were in the 80s and you lived in a village without an internet connection, sure but today everyone is aware of the means to liberate their computing environment or whatever else is bugging them. That's not an excuse any more for virtually anyone. The average American spends, not metaphorically 'literally', actually literally five hours per day on their smartphone. If you can doom scroll for five hours you can learn how to use linux, or get on a treadmill to lose some pounds.
the reality is people have the option to choose between comfort and autonomy and they voluntarily choose the former and call people annoying who preach about internet freedom and privacy. Which they might very well be but it also makes it clear they know and don't care.
Wait if it is your responsibility to stop corporations from doing bad things, why are they still doing them?
I didn’t realize there was an individual to talk to about this but, while I’ve got your attention, frankly for the sake of mankind you need to do better at this. They are running wild out here
It’s very easy. If you’re a producer, you maintain a separate presence outside the walled platforms. If you’re a consumer, you look outside the walled platform for content.
I want to try one day. Steam's pricing parity adds friction to that, though. I can't reward people for venturing to a place where they own their software, and that seems to be the only real way to move many.
Perhaps some comment on a forum or usenet somwhere. Or perhaps on a compuserve group. Or maybe someone else at school.
head-shot: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKgyH9k1CSM
I was more of a DN3D person. Laptop and a desktop, connected via a serial cable, great fun. Computer gaming was far more social in the 90s.
You can still download it for free outside of Steam.
If I make a Sonic fan game and Sega is like, you can keep it online, but just not on Steam, that’s nice.
In this situation you still have the option of playing it on Steam for a modest price
The alternative is the Nintendo route…
If megacorps would stop being stuck up their own ass and completely irrational about how they exercise their IP rights, they would actually be able to benefit massively from allowing their fan communities to flourish. The status quo doesn't have to be this shitty, and we don't necessarily need to give credit to companies who meet the incredibly low bar of "not Nintendo".
Atari is very kind to say you can keep distributing a fan game, just not on a commercial storefront.
I don’t expect to see Sonic Fan games on Steam anytime soon. Even though Sega is one of the best publishers in this regard.
Now if OpenTDD said no , we’re leaving it on Steam for free ,Atari could probably contact Valve to get it delisted.
A compromise is not a loss. I’ve downloaded tons of applications and games without Steam holding my hand and somehow I’m ok. Although I do wish sandboxing solutions with better gpu support existed
It isn't kind hearted. Them trying to shut down openttd would lead to a gigantic clusterfuck that would hurt their sales. This is them trying to remove a direct competitor to them releasing a new game as much as possible, without generating community backlash - to maximise profits
These companies are not our friends
It may have been "screwed over" if there was no access to the oss game. But you can still download the game from their website. They just do not want that these appear as competitors in steam/gog platforms, so they bundled the oss version. Both sides thought this was a reasonable resolution. Thus I don't see "screwing over" here.
This is, at worst, a morally-neutral compromise that's far better than any worst-case scenario
But let's suppose I am Atari and I have for some reason proceeded with buying said abandonware without doing my research. Upon discovering OpenTTD, I would hire the guy behind OpenTTD to work on a commercial version, keeping OpenTTD free to play but perhaps with some cool monetized expansion pack that would not have been possible without giving the developer the funding they need to work on it. That way I am making an investment in actually adding value to the game, and rewarding the person who kept it alive and in turn earning community goodwill, instead of investing in a shortsighted attempt to collect rent that backfires massively.
> commercial version
> monetized expansion
It is not clear to me whether turning (future evolutions of) OpenTTD commercial and monetising it is a preferable scenario for its community.
I'd note it also doesn't need to be done in a way that deprives players of any free future evolution. Paradox has a nice model for their games where they release expansion packs, where about half the content is part of a free update to the base game and half the content is paid. That would be perfectly suited for a case like this.
I then go "well why re-release this ancient game running in an emulator, when this exists?" and ask the core team of OpenTTD if they want to monetize their steam/GOG releases now that I can licence out the TTD IP to them and remove any remaining legal ambiguity (and recoup my """investment""" via revenue sharing).
And if they don't I take it as a learning experience (to do my homework before I buy IPs) and release my TTD-in-an-emulator on steam and GOG knowing full well that its probably not going to generate many sales. Maybe I add "hey just so you know there's this really cool modern source port you can get for free..." to the description and hope that I can generate some sales off of good boy points.
This argument is like "you buy a McDonald's then realize there is a burger king across the road. What do you do?" Yes one is a clone of the other. But you don't get to just bulldoze the burger king.
That's pretty cool of them.
It's absurd that some company can buy up and profit from thirty-year-old formerly-abandonware, and that society have been collectively browbeaten into believing in the notion of “““intellectual property””” at all.
No, they don't. They own the game data, and the original game engine. They don't own the reimplemented Open Source game engine.
OpenTTD did not have to do anything here. It sounds like they had a very positive interaction with Atari, in which Atari is providing them with some support and collaboration, and in exchange for that, OpenTTD agreed to formalize the requirement for "you need to own the original game data" by having people on game stores purchase the original game through them before getting OpenTTD through them.
That seems like a pretty reasonable approach. It should be held up as a good model for collaboration. But it shouldn't be treated as "they have every right to [demand a] cease and desist".
So it'd be pretty much impossible to claim the engine came about as a clean room implementation. And of course, even if maybe they could win a court case (honestly don't think they could) the mere threat of one would likely make openttd quit.
I don't have the impression that OpenTTD encouraged or sanctioned obtaining those assets illegitimately. They talked about how to extract them from the original game that you owned.
To what extent did they copy "appearance" other than supporting the use of the original assets?
It is certainly possible that they didn't scrupulously maintain clean hands, but I wouldn't automatically assume that.
It is about the entirety of the product, not its parts.
Simcity 2000/3000 and Lincity-NG can look pretty close at a distance too, the same with FreeCIV and Civilization 2000.
If the issue it's due to the menu layout and such that can be set with ease, GUI presets from original TTD and a 'new' one (as default) and call it done.
Arx Fatalis itself it's a Ultima Underworld inspired clone. It's more than obvious. Deus Ex it's a weird Shadowrun retelling with better hacking depictions replacing the magic shadow ruling overlods with a panopticon AI and ripping off every US conspiracy from the XFiles.
Both RPG's can be played in pretty much the same way: half stealth/half run and gun depending on your mood, augmentations, hacking to retrieve useful info, doing secondary errands, the cyberpunk theme...
Halo does the same with Marathon and Bioshock borrows a lot from System Shock.
Back when OpenTTD first released, it was a decompile (?) of TTD that loaded the assets of the game itself. This was... legally dubious, since reverse engineering.
But over time they Ship of Theseus'd the game - all code rewritten from assembly to C/C++ (I don't know), open source asset packs, etc. It's still the same base game, same feel, etc but nothing of the original code or assets remain.
I don't know enough about IP law etc to judge whether Atari would have any leg to stand on in a court of law, but it would be Complicated to say the least.
Is there no way either platform can simply stop selling the game and de-list it from the store yet people who purchased it can continue to play uninterrupted?
Or is it just the case that the project maintainers got paid off?
I get that it's not the same Atari as it was 30 years ago. But I liken it to you being a Beatles cover band and the estate of John Lennon reaches out to you, you're going to treat them with some sort of respect.
(Of course, in an ideal world, companies would not be wholly inattentive to older properties — but that's basically unsolvable without economic-level solutions for the problems of capitalism, so I don't have any ideas specific to video games to offer.)
While OpenTTD is open source, it's basis is really that the original game was reverse-engineered, originally using the original assets, and then rebuilt.
Also all the map data etc is owned by Atari, so you need to have a 'genuine' copy to access all the levels etc.
Try creating a 1:1 dupe of a Hermes bag or a Rolex and see how their legal team reacts (even if you call it an OpenBirk)
Software projects that are themselves a type of art that is itself copyrighted, lol no.
- Chip's Challange and custom levels pack
- Freedoom+Blasmepher for Doom/Heretic
- LibreQuake
- Supertux2
- Oolite
- Kgoldminner/XScavenger with level sets
- Frozen Bubble
- Any X11/console/9front sokoban clone. Everyone reuses the same level set over and over.
There are clear counter examples - see Tengen vs Nintendo, Nintendo vs Palworld, Microsoft vs halo inspired games, Microsoft vs Minecraft clones. Most are settled out court. Examples that go to court tend to be from companies with budgets to fight, lots of projects will just get DMCA’d and won’t fight, or will back down after a legal letter.
Ultimately copyright and IP infringement is decided in the courts, and the rules aren’t entirely black and white.
On software recreating something propietary:
- FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD... vs AT&T Unix.
- GNU+Linux or GNU+Hurd against propietary Unix kernels.
- Coreutils+Findutils+Sharutils... every tool reimplemented being propietary.
- Bash, GAWK, GCC, binutils, Clisp, SBCL, GNU GCJ+Classpath, Red, FreePascal+Lazarus, GNUStep+WMaker, LessTif, EMWM+Motif vs Irix' Maxx Desktop (still propietary, and from the 90's) Gaim, AMSN, 7zip, Haxima+Nahzgul (and Ultima it's still being sold at GOG), Supertux2, Supertuxkart, ReTux (very Wario like), Hexoshi (Metroid), SMC (Super Mario World), Pingus (Lemmings), XMMS/Xine cloning WinAmp and maybe PowerDVD (Xine with skins), WordTsar for Wordstar, Nano for propietary Pico (and Alpine for propietary Pine), BSD vi and Amiga vim for maybe propietary vi under AT&T/commercial Unix, Lincity and Lincity-NG for Simcity, FreeCiv against Civilization (it can use both the OG Civ rules and their custom ones), Frozen Bubble (I think the level set it's from the Neo Geo release), KGoldrunner and such for Lode Runner, Kapman for Pacman, every BSD shipping Tetris and Boggle, GNU Octave for Matlab....
The list example for both software and games being just reimplementation/clones of propietary tools goes on an on. Even DOS had propietary clones which had to reimplement the same interface as MSDOS because if not the tools written for it would just crash. Same commands, same output, same formating tools, same memory layout, they ran the same DOS binaries and drivers...
Other than the fact that most of these are very different situations, but even if they were the same it is like saying “snorting coccaine is legal because I can give a list of celebrities that have done it and have not been arrested”
The examples that are similar - eg FreeCiv, imo probably survive because of the decisions and polices of the original publisher rather than some magical legal protection which allows you to make 1:1 copies without being sued.
TuxRacer isn’t really a copy of anything, and an OS or computer utility will likely be treated in a materially different way to a computer game by a court of law.
GNU AWK it's literally copycat of Unix AWK having all of the functionality of the original AWK without being bound to the original source. So is GCC vs any vendored Unix 'cc', 'ld' and 'as', where GNU GAS was the alternative.
Again, there's GNU Bash against Unix SH, with the same exact flags for interoperativity. Ditto with Alpine against Pine, or GNU Nano against Pico with the literal same interface, commands and layout. And these are older than TTD itself.
Should I go in? Lesstif against Motif. If you installed Lesstif tons of Motif stuff would work straightly as is, as XPDF did. Another one? XMMS. Once you skinned both the were the same.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Out of the two claims, the only one that made it to appeals court was about whether it was fair use for Bleem to use screenshots of PS1 games to advertise its emulator (which was compatible with those games). The Ninth Circuit decided it was. But that's not relevant here.
The other claim was more relevant, as it was an unfair competition claim that apparently had something to do with Bleem's reimplementation of the PS1 BIOS. But the district court's record of the case doesn't seem to be available online, and the information I was able to find online was vague, so I don't know what exactly the facts or legal arguments were on that claim. Without an appeal it also doesn't set precedent.
If there were a lawsuit over OpenTTD, it would probably be for copyright infringement rather than unfair competition, and it would probably focus more on fair use and copyrightability. For fair use, it matters how much something is functional versus creative. The PS1 BIOS is relatively functional, but a game design and implementation are highly creative. On the other hand, despite being creative, game mechanics by themselves are not copyrightable. So it might come down to the extent to which OpenTTD's code was based on the reverse-engineered original code, as opposed to being a truly from-scratch reimplementation of the same mechanics. Visual appearance would also be relevant. Oracle v. Google would be an important precedent.
Another similar case with exact grounds was GNU which with Linux it completed an OS albeit in a hacky way, because the original OS would have been GNU+Hurd, but both are reimplementing Unix. Same SH derived shell, but extended. Kinda like OpenTTD. We have GNU Coreutils, Findutils, GNU AWK reimplementing and extending AWK (even when AWK was propietary), GNU Zip, Tar... the list goes on and on.
Oh, another one: Lesstif vs Motif. Same UI, if not very, very close to Motif 1.2 in order to be interoperable. Today it doesn't matter because nearly a decade a go Motif was relicensed into the GPL, but tons of libre software depending on propietary Motif was just seamlessly running with LessTIF libraries except for some rough edges/bugs. One of the most known example was DDD, a GUI for GDB.
1. OpenTTD is not a clean room rewrite. It started by disassembling the original game and manually converting to C++ on a piecemeal basis.
2. As the game was updated, sure lots of this code has been rewritten. Almost certainly the majority. But has all of it been legally rewritten? Ehh... much less clear.
This sort of process has generally been held to produce a derived work of whatever you're cloning, even if the final result no longer contains original code, hence why clean room reverse engineering even became a thing in the first place.
It's probably fuzzy enough at this stage that you could have a long expensive drawn out legal battle about it (and I suspect we'll see at least one for some other project in the coming years with the recent trend of "I had AI rewrite this GPL project to my MIT licensed clone"). Would OpenTTD win? Who knows. Could OpenTTD afford it? Certainly not.
I'm not sure if look and feel of a game like Transport Tycoon can be copyrighted, but I wouldn't like to be against it.
(I remember buying Transport Tycoon from I think Beatles, in Altrincham. I clearly remember riding on the front seat of the bus upstairs on my way to Flixton back in 1994 reading the manual)
You can see the same effect if someone were to make a yellow short guy with metal claws and regeneration as a character.
You can retype someone’s book with your keyboard, it’s still not yours.
https://osgameclones.com/
Maybe you all realize how much brainwashed from corporations yall actually are.
https://jolt.law.harvard.edu/assets/articlePDFs/v03/03HarvJL...
All of them totally legal reimplementing either prior look and feel and functionality.
I'm no expect, but Chris Sawyer style games certainly provided a unique overall impression to me. Whether it needs to be a registered design or not I couldn't say, but it's not going to be cheap to find out.
More recent battles have relied on Trademark and Patent law rather than Copyright, but "Look and Feel" is still a legal grey area
What seemed majority at the time was the idea of some collaboration/partnership and monetary exchange.
I think its a good lesson in communication, especially when you have a dedicated community. Transparency is welcome.
Regarding Atari and "their rights", there hasn't been an Atari for way too long and the IP was passed between companies left and right without additive value to users. I expect transport tycoon to be another cash grab, but happy to be surprised for the better.
Or the OpenTTD guys were not the best communicators. Considering it's the OpenTTD creators live at the intersection of the groups 'programmers' and 'adults who like to play with train sets' it wouldn't be a stretch.
All in all I think this collaborative approach is very much the preferred outcome.
All those people saying 'the open web is dead' and 'people don't download from websites anymore' are exaggerating imo.
Chris Sawyer as creator for example is known to have particular opinions on this as I recall, and if you e.g. look over to film making there's also a hot debate over preserving original artistic intent and original creations over later remasters. OpenTTD is more than a maintenance upgrade, it's a continuation and a different game.
Honestly I think it's probably just OK what Atari has done here. Monetizing the original assets is well in their rights both legally and morally (especially considering e.g. royalities to Chris), OpenTTD remains available everywhere, they're monetarily supporting OpenTTS, gamers will find it.
Note that once a commercial company decides to ship a FOSS project, they also are much more invested in potentially controlling its direction to different ends. This setup keeps OpenTTD community-run and independent, free to make decisions independent of a commercial agenda. This also feels worth protecting.
When you get to the last, you can definitely see how the original creator/artists could disagree.
I wonder how many players won't be affected by its Steam disappearance.
Similar issue with other heavy modded games, such as Kerbal Space Program. The best way to handle multiple saves with different modpacks is multiple game installations, which is against the grain for the Steam version.
That sound indistinguishable from being pressured.
This seems like a perfectly reasonable compromise to me.
If I tell my kids "it's bedtime" is that a threat?
If not then it may not be a literal threat but it contains the implied threat
Changes to OpenTTD Distribution on Steam - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47381746 - March 2026 (131 comments)
What kind of question is 'Others?' is doesn't even make any sense. It just pisses me off.
(You're welcome here personally. We just want you to respect the intended use of the site.)
I think I'd pay for a Windows License if it means I get official support for Windows apps on Linux (provided the support is indeed good).
its not really possible for the rights holder to compete with a free product, since they arent harvesting data or oxploiting the userbase, so they need to charge. and openTTD getting a cut of the money really does show that this is fully collaborative
No, fuck 'em. They had nothing to do with developing the game, and in a sane copyright structure a thirty-year-old work would be public domain by now.
You are not wrong. But alas we don't have that. ANd in the reality we live in this collaboration is way better than the alternative.
Is it easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism?
But what I can imagine has very little to do with what actually happens.
OpenTTD started as an effort to translate the original game’s assembly into higher level code.
It was not a clean room implementation. The original code was used as a base.
> Atari approached us to explain their plans for the Transport Tycoon Deluxe re-release, and what it might mean for OpenTTD.
> we understood that a compromise would be needed to balance Atari’s commercial interests […] against the availability of a free, well-developed evolution of the game.
Sounds to me like you were pressured by Atari to make these changes.
This seems to be the simplest compromise, and allows OpenTTD to continue existing without too many problems from Atari, so people don't want to make waves.
Not sure why so many commenters are failing to grasp this.
Some games have a good replayfactor. Transport Tycoon Deluxe was nice in this regard; the spirit should be retained so younger folks can play it.
You're not my mom...
Good luck with all that